some of the most the shoplifted. there are all sorts of different people. >> unfortunately we have run at a time but figgie for your questions that you touched on the areas hopefully we have time to explore. she will be signing outside a and also i would like to ask you to support this program that brings this type of writers to los angeles to nations of course, you can figure out a way to handle that. look forward to her new work right thing on the boston massacre. when do you expect? >>. [laughter] >> thank you so much for coming to a los angeles.

[applause] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> good morning and welcome to all of you. today for our discovery saturday series, we have a special guest at author who has written four books and he will discuss the latest come i have it here in my hand called "defiant" the pows who endured vietnam's most infamous prison, the women who fought them, and the one who never returned" he will tell us about his book he will answer some questions and then available to autograph copies of that

if you would like to see them. we are privileged in the course of his presentation to also have some of the pows letter mentioned with us today. ross terry we have scott morgan. any of theirs? bob flynn any others? [applause] let me tell you two things by way of introduction of

our author. his name is alvin townley. i was given a copy of this book one week ago and i thought if i introduce him i should see what this book is about. have read other accounts relative to the pow experience in vietnam and extensive conversations with that rostock dale as a mentor and adviser in had the privilege to go through the hanoi hilton while i was on active duty as the tourist attraction. i thought i should probably read it. so i will read their early chapter the middle chapters and the last chapter. it does not work. [laughter] it is a great book it is

written in day capturing eric is a style and the kind of book that takes you up in their braces you with the human spirit with the heroic measures taken by those that were captured and held for extended periods of time. but i will not ride -- read the book i will let the author do that. it is an honor to have alvin townley here with us. [applause] >> but the general did not tell you is he will leave reid three chapters that is about all a marine can do. [laughter] and the marines in the audience? anybody for the core?

[laughter] it is an honor to be here speaking for scott which is a unique experience than thrilled to have former pows comic-con fixing in the audience. so if i mess up. i want everybody to imagine if your commander shoemaker with a wife and newborn son at home. of finalist with the apollo astronaut program you are a navy fighter pilot that means you thank you are the finest fighter pilot in the world.

anyone from the air force here? [laughter] it could be a rough morning. all these jet machines using buchanan controls the uncontrollable. but you have the confidence. and in 1965 against north vietnam. february 9. says all you are this is bob shoe maker. february 112 days later. captured by the north

vietnamese in a flooded field somewhere in north vietnam. in 15 seconds of shoemaker went from incomplete control of his world that nobody in the entire country could shoot him with his crusaders down. no way. that is what happened. he is a hitch but he basically got out the sellable day and realized if he did not get out he would not finish the communication and. he ejected under 1,000 feet the shoot opened at 35 feet maybe 50 and in training you learn to do the multi point planting to get the impact out with several different body parts and will he basically said he did no 1.landing.

there he was in north vietnam without his aircraft, without weapons without his aircraft carrier or all the things that made him the world's best fighter pilot. thinking about his situation in the first thought that came to his head was not what should i do next or how do i get out of this but a life-insurance salesman offered to sell life-insurance. he wish he would buy more. he was taken captive february levin, 1965. the war was just beginning and we were the united states of america. there is no way the united

states would leave one of their best fighter pilots in north vietnam as a pow so he figured he would be home by christmas. that was 1965. he was there all of 1965, all of 1966, 1967. 1968. 1969. we have a new president. 1970. united states begins to withdraw troops from south vietnam is america going to leave us? we're withdrawing our troops. what will happen to us? >> 1972. of the pows did not come home until the 1973.

if you are in prison eight years you did not know if you were going to get home ever. you were there with a bunch of other guys in 1965 that you are with state wrestling champions, airforce guys will appreciate of former u.s. thunderbird pilots. father's. has been to. and the hanoi hilton. they would be tried to tell you it was built in the late 1800's. the country was basically a

colony. withheld vietnamese captives in the pow said you could hear the screams in of the agony of 70 years. they realize for their own experience the prisoners that could communicate to to keep in separate cells when they could. they realized this they needed a way to communicate so they cannot talk freely with one another. so they came up with the tax code. this was the lifeblood of the pow and vietnam's. fortunately they remembered this code from a coffee break conversation so bob

shoemaker and others were together in the spring of 1965. they came up with us midi harris tap code who remembered from survival school. 25 letters of the alphabet we use the letter c for the letter k25 letters. if i would said ross terry of message but said would send the letter be. it is one of because it is in the first row and twice in the second column. my generation's sometimes thinks we had the abbreviated text messaging. no, no, no. they would say gn for a good

night for tm for tomorrow they would guess the word give the quick double wrapping and they would move on to the next word. that was the first challenge to overcome to communicate. the next challenge is how to abide by the code of conduct every military pilot shot down had to learn the code of conduct that correlated with the geneva convention. that you would tell your enemy anything other than your name, your rank, service number and date of birth. you certainly would not make a statement against united states or propaganda or sell all your fellow serviceman.

so during the early interrogation when the interrogator caving in and asked to say bad things they said wait. i am protected by the geneva convention. they said i know all about the geneva convention. we just will not abide by it. they are expected to be in a situation where the enemy would honor the international agreements. but the situation in their plight under arrest to give a statement. so late the 1965 they're not getting enough good information or propaganda as a pow somebody decided they needed to get information.

so one gentleman named peg i showed up they ever do the names of their captors or interrogators they nicknamed them there was a rabbit capped, but pig eye was famous who will administer the worst torture. scoop for word except the pow. put your arms behind your back put your hands together that was the first things that they do. before this gets bad don'ts you wanted to sign the statement that america is the imperialists power this is immoral and it if you do

we will give you some good food in and let you play volleyball or go home early. you are competitive there is no way you will beat these guys. now they tie your elbows together can you touch your elbows? it is hard. they pull your arms you feel like your shoulders will pop out, the sternum is about to split and still you will not tell them what they want to to no. just signed this confession. we will not tell anybody. no one will ever know. the war the american fighter pilot. you will not do that.

so if you can put your legs out in this -- straight in front of you if there is some late fired on your ankles your knees are flat against the concrete floor and he takes those ropes and pull them over your head and drive your nose down to your knees. they would call it the rope trick and at some point everybody broke there was no way your body could take that. imagine those positions for hours sometimes they would make it so bad he would break quickly. every aviator was by himself a first time he broke were signed a confession that gave more than the rank or

data for as he thought he was the only guy who could not hold online. they were crushed. they come back to the cells they learned they

>> confess no crime. the north vietnamese don't call the aviators anything other than a war criminal. war criminal. war criminal. war criminal. the general wanted to make sure that they were not criminals. they were soldiers. there were never to confess to any crime. then don't kiss up in don't

kurri any special favors and whenever that would be you did not know. so how terribly they were treated. of the u.s. stood for unity over self the view two's survive and remain tiny one dash maintained they had to be unified. they had to remember the unity was the most important thing they should always have a brother pow in mind whenever there were tortured every day. that is the way these men got through this situation by supporting each other.

'04 or 500 pows in north vietnam a organize resistance stock sale was one of the key leaders. but it did not matter there were several prisons around hanoi but the vietnamese brought him in front of the tribunal the frizzing camp said you cause us a lot of trouble. know your orders. you set the reeducation in program back to years. stock dale said he never received a fighter compliment them that. but stock deal with his leadership team there were a lot of senior officers there

they were causing trouble and they had to get rid of them. they identified 11 pow most senior ranking officers and this also tells you how to get kicked out of the pow camp. stock taylor received a the medal of honor from when he came home jeremiad became a u.s. senator from alabama and davis the you may remember that they put it senator denton on tv to do a live interview. he did not say when he was supposed to say he said what he wanted to say he knew he would get in trouble for that and he did. and he would blink a lot people thought to was the city of lights that he is

smarter than i am. but he could talk and bleak torture in morse code again and again and again. torture. torture. torture. george mcknight was the boxer from oregon. he was the state wrestling champion. because for the second to they never let them forget there. these to do escaped. i will not tell you what happened because you need to read the book but with these

two characters did how far they got it is an amazing story. phase two men were squadron to commanders the laurel and of the party of the pow. never more than 30 feet apart for almost eight years and for the first hero if they'd never even saw each other. just a tap through the wall. gem and sambos made it out and today they share grandchildren. jim's son married to saddam's daughter now they have the pow grandchildren. and he is now congressman from the state of texas in

was the lead pilot for the thunderbirds. ron one pow from this group that did not make it home it was ron. win that you read the book we did not because i wrote to because the most incredible story you will ever hear. you understand how all mentally terrible that whole situation was. october 1966 they were shot down. i will tell you why. they were worked over for quite a long time and

realize they have to right the confession eventually. but they decided they would write to a confession but at this point he could barely use is the answer. so talk about the fellow officers the protesters of war and mention one of the officers was clark kent. remember superman? the vietnamese did not notice this so a couple months later they released this to the world as a great confession. they got a phone call could

they took knows along with the others to alcatraz. there is a prison north 13 cells they live for two years nine by four flecked. it is about that. this is where those guys lived for two years. there were no windows. they did not have much

energy they could not do pushups were situps are because they were so injured. this was there world. it was cold in the winter and like a furnace in the summer. they had nothing to do. i thought when i told him i was writing the book. said it was boring. i have a friend to build miniature replica id my backyard. one night he cable and kidnap to me i had a bucket bucket, a figure out what that was for a and a blanket a pair of pants and a t-shirt and a bottle of water in he locked me in the

cell. i did not think this was a problem because i knew it would happen that some point there was the key pad lock device dash the key inside so i could get out for the first night i was in there eight hours i was bored and it was kind of cold was uncomfortable but i thought i will get to a blanket. nobody build know i will take my key to open the feeding whole and reach around. but joshed anticipated i made to this and changed the padlock. just in a tiny way i got a small taste of what it my a feel like to be taken as the pow and lose control. as the couple of days went

by i learned what he meant when he said it was boring. it drives you crazy. you hope the squirrel will run out so when they get to alcatrazes that is what the vietnamese did. they left them there and made them sit there. they had to come up with ways to keep themselves occupied so they would tap poems and sit there for days to find out sam johnson was a building contractor before he joined the air force how much lumber and bricks would cost with the labrum homes by shoemaker said his was a

long time to build. a way to keep their mind occupied. has anybody seen this. one of the extraordinary women's movement in history in almost nobody knows it. they did not realize they had to take action to get the husband home. of legend were shote -- shoemaker now imagine you are stockdale us senior officer in the chaplain get out. you know, your husband has been shot down or killed.

they come in to say your husband has been shot down rethink he is alive. we're not sure. be a now will not tell us but we asked just keep quiet and we will take care of it. mid-19th 65 as a military wife you do what you are told. you trust the government with the genius communication you learn that the treatment for the pow is not good and through secret communique mueller your husband is at the hands of experts in torture idem leg irons 16 hours per day.

so to organize before they had self loans and spending hours on the phone with virginia beach, a jacksonville. to organize to put pressure on the politicians say of the press to talk about this issue to bring their husbands home. they created an extraordinary move with that we still recognize today and i expect a bunch of you war pow mia bracelet its. there were over 5 million minted and people from all sides were them. because of these women and the movement the country came in together we were in a position to differentiate

the trees the political goals of the war and the men who were fighting. the mia families known as the alcatraz "defiant" alcatraz eleven. because of their work because of what they did in 1973 and after eight years shoemaker was reunited with his family. the last time he saw his son he was eight in the picture he was two months old. can you imagine? but there has never been a

situation like this before and hopefully not again put their shared experience misstate a very cohesive group to keep up with one another and one of the biggest gifts that this book has given me is the chance to get to know these people. i never thought some of my good friend is that 80 year-old a pow that has been so special. when we look at this in it is important to remember it is not just about alcatraz eleven or the pow and of the american military that make america what it is. but with that service men

and women realize there has never been another group of american that has endured more for longer in american history. and the other thing to take away is not a bad day. they keep for being here for your service. [applause] >> alvin townley has recently is -- graciously accepted some time to answer your questions we will have a few minutes because this

is recorded i will repeat the question but do you have any questions in the audience? >> this is taped on c-span so check with the museum when it will air. >> what happened to harry? >> he flew to the experimental homemade aircraft. harry was six ft. five in june's -- 5 inches they

called him and ichabod crane and they're not sure how they did that but it's he always loved flying but he came home and is sadly he was killed in 1989 in a small plane accident. his family has ben wonderfully supportive of this. >> every other year would go up to oshkosh. he would fly one in the front end from the back seat

i flew a couple of months earlier he landed at the high desert in arizona it was the very hot day and he was overloaded in to cough he could not get airborne down the runway that could not stop so he went through the chain-link fence that hit him in the head and that is how he met his demise. >> the great thing about these guys is they were all fighter pilots in stayed that way throughout their lives. think you for sharing that.

>> soap the commander thought he would be the yen against pow just turned 23 when he was shot down. a former wrestler that escaped. but he was not there was a 18 year-old that was washed overboard he thought surely there is no way he would be washed overboard to end up at the hanoi hilton. so they thought he might get a chance to go home early. so of all the pow so he did. over to the winter games the

basically the to the tune of old macdonald had the farm and would say it so fast they had to debrief him over several days so they could figure out all he was saying in the speeded up presentation. the johnson family the rutledge family but when he got home he brought the first word to the families that the husbands and fathers were still alive. >> talk about how they survived in isolation i am sure you heard about fred ainge his way to play musec. >> that is a great story. by shoemaker in addition to

at ph.d. the aeronautics is also a musician. to lay out a piano keyboard and also a good right to music from berndt magic is sent to the paper. retrieve him in his cell mates david played musec all day long and the first via debbie was a neighboring cell. he said willis said that we will play you a to. after a couple of minutes he would pass back not bad for ragtime. they had to be tremendously creative. [laughter] >> the picture that you showed of bob being captured

is that a true picture? or is that the one they tortured him for to go all-out to retake their propaganda picture? >> good question i believe that ray and in 1965 after they were released. i think that it's is it. with the torture but i think he played a different part. with the film crew trying to find folks to play the part and convince bob to do this so they beat him up pretty badly. he did not have to play the part of the american aviator but he did need the part played of love and did a peter. so he still had to play the wounded aviator.

. . it's been more rewarding than i ever imagined. we're already in our second printing. the book has been out for a month. and america is just, i think,

enamored in some ways with the story, which is so important because so many of us have forgot 'what that period meant, what these men and women service meant and my generation was born after the war. so a lot of people in my generation don't know the story of the vietnam p.o.w. so my mission is to bring the story to our country so they never forget what these men did. >> yes, ma'am. >> i know he doesn't want me to say anything, but i know this is at alcatraz. but my hoss was shot down and can carried into china and held in solitaryphone finement for five and a half years. i just want that to be known. [applause]

there are so many stories about the vietnam war, the vietnam period, that we need to know, and sadly we don't know, and i hope that other people will come along and share their stories, and then america understands what so many people sacrificed in a very difficult war, for their country and ultimately for each other, and what the families went through. one of my big lessons has been learning how important the military families are to the whole enterprise of naval aviation or military aviation or armed services generally. and i think at it something we always need to remember, what the families go through and how to support them. so thank you for sharing that and thank you for doing that. that incredible. >> any other questions? ladies and gentlemen, let me add one more endorsement to the book. i have personally read arguably three different accounts, three

different books, on the p.o.w., the american p.o.w. experience in vietnam. this is by far the most readable, the most easily understood, and the best account i have personally ever read, and i encourage you to pick up a copy and read it. you also have the opportunity to have him autograph it today, and i encourage you to do that. i want us all to give alvin a round of police for writing such a wonderful book. [applause] >> thank you. >> the autographs will occur up by the book store over here at the flying deck shop behind you, up against the wall. he'll be there to sign the at graphs and you can -- the autographs and you can